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  • hilly 6:36 pm on December 23, 2015
    Tags: , shrewsbury lane   

    Request to de-list Elmhurst Cottage turned down 

    Elmhurst Cottage

    Elmhurst Cottage

    I was very pleased to hear that the council has decided to reject the request to remove Elmhurst Cottage in Shrewsbury Lane from their Locally Listed Buildings list, retaining for it the protections given to buildings on the list.

    The e-mail with the news came from Principal Conservation Officer Rebecca Duncan, and said:

    Please find below details of the decision taken on 15/12/15 by Councillor Thorpe, Cabinet Member for Regeneration and Transport, which comes into force today 22/12/15.
    Decision:
    ·         Approved: the retention of Elmhurst Cottage on the Royal Borough’s List of Buildings of Local Architectural or Historic Interest (known as the ‘Local List’).
    ·         Agreed: the amendment of the List entry for Elmhurst Cottage to accurately describe the building’s architectural interest, historic interest and environmental significance.

    Full details of the decision, including an interesting report, can be found on the Royal Borough of Greenwich’s web site. The new listing for Elmhurst Cottage gives much more detail about the cottage’s importance:

    A small, single storey weather-boarded cottage, with slate roof and sash windows.  Decorative trellis work to sides of windows and projecting porch.  Set back from the road at an angle, with extensive front and rear gardens.  The building and its site is of historic interest since it has historic associations with the Lidgbirds and the Dallins, significant and well-known landowning families who shaped Shooters Hill.  The estate containing the cottage can be traced from the Lidgbirds in 1851 to the trustees of Mary Dallin in 1901.  The building is of architectural interest since it is a rare example of a small, weather-boarded Kentish dwelling, the last-surviving one of its type in the area.  Built between 1866 and 1894, it is one of the oldest buildings on Shrewsbury Lane and survives the two large houses in the locality, Haddon Lodge and the original Shrewsbury House.  The building is of environmental significance since, with its unusual and attractive open setting, it is a time-honoured and locally valued feature which contributes to the character of Shrewsbury Lane and also provides a valuable wildlife haven for lizards, butterflies, bats and birds.

    Twentyseven of us responded to the consultation about Elmhurst, of whom 25 were against de-listing the cottage and 2 in favour.

    I suspect we haven’t heard the last of attempts to redevelop the land that the cottage occupies.

     

     
  • hilly 10:43 am on August 17, 2015
    Tags: , , shrewsbury lane   

    Attempt to de-list Elmhurst Cottage 

    Elmhurst Cottage

    Elmhurst Cottage

    An application has been submitted to the Royal Borough of Greenwich to remove Elmhurst Cottage from the council’s Locally Listed Buildings list. If successful this would remove the protections given to buildings on the list, and ease the way for redevelopment of the 0.3 Acre site. It was submitted by a local company, Building Design & Services Ltd., but appears to be on behalf of a company named Broadberry International Limited. There is no indication as to the reason for the request, but I suspect it is not out of academic concern for the historical accuracy of the local list.

    The heart of the case to remove Elmhurst Cottage from the list, which is laid out in a Heritage Statement prepared by HeritageCollective and submitted with the application,  appears to be twofold: that the cottage was not built until 1895-1896 and that it was too humble for important historical people such as the Lidgbird and Dallin families to live in.

    The evidence presented that the cottage was not built until 1895-1896 relies on part of a hand-drawn map that was submitted with an 1889 planning application for a new stable on a property further down Shrewsbury Lane. The map, which is part of catalogue item MBW/BA/39056 in the London Metropolitan Archive, is shown below followed by the equivalent area from Alan Godfrey’s 1894 OS map, which clearly shows Elmhurst Cottage. The hand-drawn map does not include a number of buildings that are shown in the OS map from just 5 years later, and has a number of inaccuracies in the shapes, orientations  and positions of the buildings compared to the Ordnance Survey map. For instance, it does not include the huge Haddon Hall, just over the lane from Elmhurst Cottage. Haddon Hall also appears on Alan Godfrey’s 1866 and 1914 maps, so it was certainly there in 1889. The size, shape and outbuildings of the large house named Elmhurst are not captured accurately on the 1889 map, nor are those of the Homestead. In fact it is an amateur map intended to show where a new stable would go, not to show the size, shape and location of neighbouring buildings.

    It is clear that the 1889 hand-drawn map is not conclusive evidence of the presence or absence of Elmhurst Cottage, or of the date it was built. The Heritage Statement includes a snippet of the 1894 OS map mislabelled as being from 1896, plus a part of the 1866 OS map mislabelled as being from 1889. If nothing else the presence of Elmhurst on the 1894 map shows that it was there before the 1895-1896 claimed.

    Map from HeritageCollective's Heritage Statement about Elmhurst Cottage

    Map from HeritageCollective’s Heritage Statement about Elmhurst Cottage

    Snippet from Alan Godfrey’s 1894 Ordnance Survey Map of Shooters Hill

    Snippet from Alan Godfrey’s 1894 Ordnance Survey Map of Shooters Hill

    The Heritage Statement provides no evidence that a wealthy family such as the Lidgbirds or the Dallins would not have lived in a cottage such as Elmhurst Cottage other than some information from a directory of 1910 about who lived at the cottage. This is many years after the Dallin family lived at Elmhurst.

    The Heritage Statement quotes a passage about the history of Elmhurst Cottage from an e-shootershill post about buildings of local interest, however it fails to include any of the more detailed information about the historical associations of the cottage in a later post about Elmhurst. This cottage is one of the few reminders of the families – the Lidgbirds, Dallins and Jacksons – who shaped Shooters Hill. Colonel Bagnold also lists a number of senior military people who lived at Elmhurst: Col. Shipley; Lord Ribblesdale; Col. Foster; W Fitzhardinge; Col. Wooley-Dod; Col. Murray-Smith; Major Barstow; Col. F. Watts-Allen. A rich local history.

    Why is someone trying to de-list Elmhurst Cottage now? Who knows – the applicants haven’t given any indications of their plans, nor have they talked to neighbours of Elmhurst Cottage,  who first learned of the attempt to de-list when they got the Royal Borough’s letter. Although it seems clear that the cottage has been sold because it is no longer up for sale, the Land Registry has not yet been updated with the new owner’s details. HeritageCollective produced the Heritage Statement for Broadberry International Limited. No company of this name comes up in a search of the Companies House web site. and a Google search only gives a British Virgin Islands company for which the last information is 2007. It seems unlikely that Broadberry Data Systems, Broadberry Consulting or Broadberry Care Solutions have moved into property development, so the plans for the site remain a mystery.

    The notice about the application gives details about how to comment:

    Any person who wishes to make representations to the Royal Borough about the application should do so in writing (via email or post) by 08-Sep-2015 to building-conservation@royalgreenwich.gov.uk or to Planning Department, 5th floor, Woolwich Centre, 35 Wellington Street, Woolwich, SE18 6HQ

    It is also possible to comment on-line on the planning pages for the application. The Royal Borough of Greenwich web site includes information about how buildings get on the local list, as well as the list itself.

     
    • Deborah 1:50 pm on August 18, 2015

      I have commented elsewhere on the inaccuracies of the maps and I see you have come to the same conclusions, which shows what a shoddy job “Heritage Collective” have done. What amazes me is that they have made a subjective statement regarding the desirability of the cottage as a place of abode for someone from a grand family, then compound this silliness by stating that a piece of tenuous evidence from a much later date proves the statement to be conclusive. The “research” has been very sloppy, selective and full of errors. The John Lidgebird they cite (“High Sheriff of Kent”) as you know, cannot have been the one who built Elmhurst Cottage, as he died, quite possibly a lunatic, in 1771. His son, Henry inherited the estate and he continued the building work at the Arsenal. As you have written before, it seems likely that he had at least two sons: Henry Lidgebird Junior and John Lidgebird are mentioned in conjunction with the building works into the 1840s. Now, a memorial tablet in St Nick’s states that Henry died, unmarried, in 1820. As you also discovered, he died intestate and there followed nine years of litigation, after which the estate was divided between two distant relatives: Mary Dallin (again, not the one referred to by Heritage Collective, but her mother) and Ann Wilding. It is notable that neither Henry Junior nor John inherited any of the estate. It does not seem inconceivable, therefore, that the two were illegitimate. This is certainly a better explanation as to why John would live in a humble dwelling on part of his father’s former estate, than the nonsense suggested by “Heritage Collective”. Out of interest, Hilly, have you looked at the Kentish Independent for 1976?

      • hilly 3:07 pm on August 18, 2015

        That’s an interesting thought about the younger Lidgbirds, have you come across any records of them? I haven’t looked at the Kentish Independent, sounds like a walk down to the Heritage Centre is required.

    • Deborah 2:21 pm on August 18, 2015

    • Deborah 3:51 pm on August 18, 2015

      A former occupier of the cottage has been asking local people. She contends that the cottage was not rebuilt and is the original old building. I seem to recall a newspaper article about an exact replica being built, which would account for the oldy-worldy materials. I suggested she look for the article in the Kentish Independent, but I think she may live in Somerset. I can’t find any local Lidgebirds on Ancestry or FindMyPast. The St Nick’s parish records have been digitalised, so perhaps the name has been persistantly mistranscribed. Of course, the sons will have been baptised with the mother’s surname/s if they were illigitimate. I’ve started to draft my representations, but will wait to see whether you find anything at the HC.

      • hilly 10:19 am on August 21, 2015

        I scanned through all the 1976 Kentish Independents yesterday and couldn’t find any mention of Elmhurst Cottage. Wonder if it could have been a different newspaper?

    • Deborah 9:56 pm on August 18, 2015

      Ah, just spotted my error. I confused two Henry Lidgbirds.

      • Deborah 10:25 pm on August 18, 2015

        However, I have found other John Lidgbirds in Plumstead, both contemporaneous and later than Sir John. As Sir John had only one child and, as the surname is uncommon, one would assume that the other John Lidgbirds are relatives – although, perhaps, with less claim to the estate than Mary Lidgbird and Ann Wilding.

    • Deborah 3:18 pm on August 21, 2015

      I’m trying to think of another local paper at the time. I think another popular one that covered this area was the Bexleyheath Observer, which is held on microcfiche at Bexley Archive Centre. They also have the News Shopper for a greater range of dates than Greenwich.

  • hilly 12:05 pm on April 19, 2014
    Tags: , , shrewsbury lane   

    Elmhurst 

    Elmhurst Cottage

    Elmhurst Cottage

    Six hundred thousand pounds!? For a three-bedroom wooden bungalow on Shrewsbury Lane? I know house prices are increasing, but that seems a bit much. Ah, but the advert includes the magic word “redevelopment” and also mentions a 0.3 acre plot: “Locally Listed but suitable for redevelopment, the property occupies a plot of approx 0.3 acre atop Shooters Hill on this desirable residential road.” That must explain the price, but that phrase “locally listed but suitable for redevelopment …” sounds a bit presumptuous.

    Would planning permission be given for demolition of the cottage and new development? It’s debatable.  Elmhurst Cottage represents one of the last remaining links to part of the formative history of Shooters Hill, and to some of the individuals and families that shaped the Hill’s development: the Lidgbirds and the Dallins. The description in The Royal Borough of Greenwich’s Locally Listed Buildings register hardly scratches the surface of the historical associations:

    No. 40 ‘Elmhurst Cottage’
    Small single storey timber building – originally appeared on Ordnance Survey map of 1846, but rebuilt in previous style in 1976. Lidgebird, brickmaker for the Royal Arsenal, lived here. Built of wood with slate roof and sash windows. Decorative trellis work to sides of windows and projecting porch.

    Henry Lidgbird is described in English Heritage’s Survey of London Woolwich as a “master bricklayer since 1711”,and he comes to prominence when the decision was made to build a royal foundry at Woolwich following the devastating  explosion  on 10th May 1716 at the private Moorfields Foundry that killed 17 people. O.F.G. Hogg’s detailed two volume history of The Royal Arsenal records the decision to send:

    A letter to Mr Henry Lidgbird to attend the Surveyor general the 20th about providing bricks for the Royal Brass Foundry at Woolwich.

    In the end  Henry provided a total of 35,534 Windsor bricks for the Foundry, plus 28,500 place bricks and 10,000 hard stock bricks for the furnace. Not to mention 17tons 2cwt of loam! He went on to work on many other developments at the Arsenal: Chapter 3 of the Survey of London Woolwich book mentions a number of them:

    • The Royal Brass Foundry of 1716–17, largely with bricks brought by barge from Windsor;
    • The site-perimeter wall near the foundry, also in 1717;
    • The Great Pile of Buildings (Dial Arch), 1717–20;
    • Building 40 (the Academy), 1718–20 and 1721–3.

    Henry worked with Master Carpenter William Ogbourne on much of this work, and they are also mentioned together in the Treasury’s accounts for 1715-16, which detail Henry’s work on the repairs of a number of castles and forts sited all round the country, including the Tower of London, Portsmouth, Dover, Deal and Sandwich. The account for Hyde Park and St. James’s Park, for which Henry was paid £222 12s 0d, is a typical example:

    Hyde Park and St. James’s Park: Henry Lidgbird, senior and junior, for two chimneys and pantiling the roof of the Guard House and Officers’ House in Hyde Park where the Artillery Train was encampt; William Ogborne, for work etc. about the storehouses in St. James’s Park; Henry Lidgbird, ditto

    Henry must have had at least two sons as Henry Junior is mentioned frequently in the details of the work at the Royal Arsenal and John Lidgbird also appears in connection with building work in 1745.

    Church of St Nicholas Plumstead

    Church of St Nicholas Plumstead

    Sir John Lidgbird, according to David Lloyd Bathe’s “Steeped In History”, bought an extensive area of Shooters Hill on the north side of the Dover Road in 1733, and built a large Georgian mansion called Broom Hall. The London Metropolitan Archive have a number of photographs of both the exterior and interior of Broom Hall, and it is shown to the west of Shrewsbury Lane  on the snippet of Alan Godfrey’s 1894 OS map below. Bagnold records that John Lidgbird was a church-warden of Plumstead for several years, governor of Plumstead work house in 1740 and High Sheriff of Kent in 1741. He was still involved in building work at the Royal Arsenal: he is recorded as being responsible for building a brick wharf in 1745, and in 1760 the Arsenal bought Shooters Hill gravel from “Mr Lidgbird’s pits” for 3d a load to be mixed with Woolwich Common gravel for the repair of roads and footpaths. The Shooters Hill gravel was essential because the Common gravel wouldn’t bind without an admixture of that from the Hill.

    The Church in Plumstead where John Lidgbird was church warden would have been St Nicholas, at that time the parish church. The fascinating  grade 2* listed church’s history goes back over a thousand years to 960AD, and at one time it was on the banks of the Thames. I’m indebted to the vicar there for letting me have a look round the church, and take the photograph below of John Lidgbird’s memorial plaque, which describes him as “that truly valuable man”. Just above the plaque is John’s coat of arms: “Quarterly gules and azure, a chevron ermine in chief two eagles displayed argent.”  It has been suggested that the two eagles in the coat of arms are the origin of the name of Eaglesfield Park.

    Sir John died in 1771. An entry in the catalogue of the National Archives suggests his last years may not have been happy – it records a “commission and inquisition of lunacy, into his state of mind and his property”. He was succeeded by his son Henry who inherited John’s substantial land holdings in Shooters Hill, the City of London and Middlesex. This land included that where Shrewsbury House was built, and it was Henry who leased that land to the Earl of Shrewsbury. Henry died intestate in 1820, following which 9 years of litigation concluded with his estate being divided between two distant relatives: Mary Lidgbird, whose daughter also named Mary, married the Reverend Thomas James Dallin, and 15 year old Ann Wilding, who later married Mr. William Jackson of Highgate. The land holdings east of Shrewsbury Lane went to Mary Lidgbird and those to the west to Ann Wilding.  Shrewsbury Lane, which had been a winding country lane, was straightened to delineate the boundary between the two holdings. These were significant areas of land: there’s a list of the different parcels of land in the Plumstead Tithe award schedule from August 1842.

    Memorial to "that truly valuable man" John Lidgbird in St Nicholas Plumstead

    Memorial to “that truly valuable man” John Lidgbird in St Nicholas Plumstead

    The Rev. Robert Dallin was also associated with the church of St Nicholas: he was curate there in 1814 when the vicar was the Rev. Henry Kipling. The Rev. Dallin ran an  academy for gentlemen in Wickham House, one of the buildings that used to be part of the old Bull Hotel. As well as the academy he presided over services in the Shooters Hill Chapel, which was created from the Bull’s Assembly room. In both of these endeavours he was assisted by his son, the Rev. Thomas James Dallin, who continued both after his father’s death in 1833. Thomas’s marriage to Mary Lidgbird was reported in the Spectator on 29th June 1839:

    On the 20th inst., at Trinity Church, Marylebone, the Rev. T. J. DALLIN, A.M. of Wickham House, Shooter’s Hill, Kent, to Miss MARY LIDGBIRD, of Buckingham Place New Road.

    Both the Dallins and the Jacksons had large houses built on the land they inherited in  Shrewsbury Lane, each with substantial grounds. On the West of the Lane was Haddon Lodge which was built by William Jackson in about 1860 and on the East Elmhurst was built by the Dallins in 1859. Bagnold reports that these two were the only houses recorded on the lane in the 1862-67 ordnance survey map. The snippet from Alan Godfrey’s 1894 OS map below shows both houses. Haddon Lodge is labelled, and Elmhurst is the property on the other side of the Lane directly to the South of Haddon Lodge. Elmhurst Cottage is shown just over the road from Haddon Lodge. It can also be seen on the accompanying snippet from Google maps. The1894 map also shows John Lidgbird’s mansion, Broom Hall.

    Later residents at Elmhurst included Lord Ribblesdale  who served in Gladstone’s government as Master of the Buckhounds and chief whip and was immortalised in John Singer Sargent’s painting.

    Snippet from Alan Godfrey's 1894 Ordnance Survey Map of Shooters Hill

    Snippet from Alan Godfrey’s 1894 Ordnance Survey Map of Shooters Hill

    Google Maps Snippet showing Elmhurst Cottage

    Google Maps Snippet showing Elmhurst Cottage

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    The Rev. Thomas James Dallin made another contribution to the area, as the Rev. Cecil Fielding records in the section about Christ Church Shooters Hill in his 1910 book The Records of Rochester:

    The Church was built through the efforts of Revs. T. J. Dallin and J. S. Masters. There is a window to the first, and the Choir Stalls are a Memorial to the other. There is also a Lectern in memory of Mr. Woolfield-Hardinge, Churchwarden 1884-1890. The Registers date from 1855.
    1855, Thomas James Dallin.
    1865, John Smallman Masters.
    1897, Thomas Benjamin Willson.

    The money to build Christ Church, some £2000,  was all raised by public subscription. Dallin himself laid the foundation stone on 22nd August 1855, and presided over services from its opening on 1st December 1856 until his death in 1865.

    Lidgbird’s Broom Hall was demolished in 1937, replaced by the houses on Shooters Hill and Hill End. Elmhurst and Haddon Lodge are also now housing, with just a remnant of the Lodge’s perimeter wall surviving at the side of Occupation Lane.  Elmhurst Cottage is a last reminder of all that local history, a reminder that will be lost if the cottage is demolished and redeveloped.

    Is that likely to happen? Well the Greenwich Core Strategy seems to give strong protection to locally listed buildings (my emboldening):

    Policy DH(j) Locally Listed Buildings
    In considering proposals affecting buildings on the Local List of Buildings of Architectural or Historic Interest, substantial weight will be given to protecting and conserving the particular characteristics that account for their designation. Consequently, proposals for the demolition or unsympathetic alteration of Locally Listed Buildings will be strongly discouraged.

    My fear, based on what has happened at other Shooters Hill “development” sites is that a developer who cares little about the area will submit a planning application to demolish the cottage and build something completely inappropriate like a three storey block of flats which crams in as many saleable units as possible. Following local opposition this will be rejected by the Greenwich Planning Committee  – because the cottage is locally listed, because the proposal is incompatible with the character of the area and because the development constitutes garden grabbing. The site will then be boarded up and become a tip while the developers sit and wait for a change in policy or a change in government.

    Wouldn’t it be nice if the cottage was bought by someone sympathetic to the neighbourhood, who talked to the cottage’s neighbours  about their plans, and then proposed changes that preserve as much as possible and celebrate the local history. A bit like the development of the former gas decontamination centre at Furze Lodge which now has a display about the building’s history at the front. However can that be afforded when the cottage is priced at £600,000?

    Christ Church

    Christ Church Shooters Hill

     
    • Deborah O'Boyle 11:56 am on April 20, 2014

      A fascinating and well-researched piece. I had conducted a little research of my own some years ago, but not to the extent that you have and, although I have much of the information about Jackson, Dallin, et al, had not yet tied much of it together. I think this will be invaluable information.

      Anyway, I had long imagined retiring to Elmhurst Cottage. At £600,000, another dream has gone pop!

      • Deborah O'Boyle 5:30 pm on May 11, 2014

        John Lidgebird also built the Bull Hotel (demolished 1880) to rival the Catherine Wheel, following his failure to buy that institution, and to capitalise on the improvements to Shooters Hill.

    • Len Newland 3:32 pm on April 20, 2014

      Very interesting article. I think the Jacksons were also the first owners of Lowood Lodge (Shooters Hill Golf Club) and there was a pathway from Shrewsbury House to Lowood which was bought by Laing’s when they built houses on the Laing estate.

      • hilly 9:07 pm on April 20, 2014

        I think you may be right about the Jacksons and Lowood. David Lloyd Bathe’s “Steeped In History” says that Lowood was built in 1874 by J.J. Jackson, but I couldn’t link him definitively to the Jacksons who inherited from Henry Lidgbird.

    • David Bathe 9:25 am on April 24, 2014

      HI since moving down south I have lost contact with the “Hill” although I have managed to meet a few old friends a few weeks ago. It is wonderful your site is still on the go as a community link with its history is so important, and thanks for the mention in the article. I have managed to meet the son of the local dentist (Herbert Road) who lived in Shrewsbury lane (The house with the sub station) and he told me many stories about his life on the hill in the ’50’s. As for the sale of Elmhurst, I just hope a High Rise block of flats will not replace it, which is what they wanted in Cleanthus all those years ago.

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